Marshall JCM 900`s ???????

[Strat God]

I love 900 Dual Reverbs. I've been buying Marshalls since the 70's and to my ears the 900 series is the best.

I'm always looking for 900 50 watt heads if you guys want to get rid of them. I guess tone is in the ear of the beholder.

[slayer]

Man, can you believe the 1985 2204`s don`t have Effects Loops I really nead that for stuff. How do you guys deal without them? If I nead to add one, which one and how much? Do I nead a level control? Jack.

[Twisteramps]

OK time to clear up some bad advice here, sorry twister and JC, but i need to set the record straight, there is a difference between boosting a amp with a tube screamer and diode clipping. But first let me start off by saying that i have nothing against diode clipping, like i said i Keep my JMP-1 which has diode clipping.

Most of what makes a tube amp in demand is the power section, it is what warms it up and stops it from going shrill at high volumes. I love putting pedals in front of tube amps, i dont always like pre amp tube distortion.

OK with that being said, there is a big difference between a amp like the 2210 that has diode clipping and a JCM800 2203 that you use a pedal to boost. So here is a break down.

Amps like the 2210 actualy have diodes that create distortion, besides the tubes these little diodes are taking a clean signal and distorting it. Yes you can still put a tube screamer in front of a 2210 and get more distortion because it does have pre-amp tubes.

Now understand most musicians that take a tube screamer and put it in front of say a 2203 are not using the actuall distortion part (diolde clipping) of the pedal.

Basicaly what they are doing is keeping the distortion (drive) all the way down and and jacking the level so high that it is forcing the Pre-amp tubes to distort more. This means the tube screamer is taking your clean signal level from your guitar and jacking it up but not distorting it.

There are other ways to jack the signal up, like using a external EQ with the level jacked up will give you the same effect, this is what stryper did to get there pre-amps to distort more. However alot of external EQ's will not jack the level as much as tube screamers and some EQ's will jack it more, depends on who makes it.

Certain pickups will also make a amp scream more, like EMG 81's or a X2N because the level comeing from them is very hot (high), not as hot as putting a tube screamer with the level jacked up, but damn close.

So you see there is a difference between diode clipping and using a tube screamer to make the pre amp tubes scream more.

With my old 2204 i had two tube screamers, one was set with no drive and the level all the way up to give me a medium gain and the second was set with drive and leval all the way up to give me a heavier gain. Both sounded great, just depended on how much distortion i needed.

Once again, there is nothing wrong with diode clipping, that warm tone you get is from the power amp.

A diode works by rounding the edge off a signal. The more voltage you put into a diode, the more it rounds or clips until it reaches it's limit. The less signal, the less it clips. Different diodes have different voltage amounts at which they affect the sound. Main difference between a TS and a SD is that the SD uses three diodes (called asymmetrical distortion) that clips the top and bottom of the waveform differently.

I don't buy the 'totally clean boost' theory on the TS9 and SD (and variants) because an EQ does NOT sound the same, and I've never known any musicians who rely on a totally clean tone to use a TS9 or SD as a volume boost into ANY amp. There's a little bit of grind there even with the drive down, imho - even if it's not crunched out, you're still going through those diodes and it's clipping the signal a bit.

Depending on how you run your volumes/gain on a JCM800/900 with diode clipping, you may not clip the diodes MUCH, but there's likely some. Everyone I've heard of who could 'hear' diode clipping was full of crap - it's very tube like. Kevin O'Connor is a proponent of using diodes in tube amps, and he's a boutique guy. (www.londonpower.com).

I'm not going to call Siggy's advice bad, just that I've built over a dozen pedals with diode clipping, and built tube amps with experimental diode stages (none that I've sold, so don't worry guys). My opinion is formed from my experience building things. If my advice is seen as "bad' from Siggy, so be it.

Also, depending on who you talk to (Kevin is one of them), the preamp section is as or more important than the power amp section on tube amps. It's how the amp is designed - just the fact that it has tubes in the power section does not instantly impart godly warm tone to everything ran through it. If you think every tube power section sounds great, why not compare a VHT to say a marshall monoblock?

Personally, if given a choice, I'd take a great tube preamp through a good solid state amp than a good solid state preamp into a great tube amp. Just my opinion though.

Pete

[Twisteramps]

PS- Part of the reason the 2210's and the JCM900's sound thinner has nothing to do with the diodes or the pre-amp section at all. It has to do with the fact that Marshall tried to cheap out and they cut one of the capacitors out of the power amp section which in return made it sound thinner and not as much UMPH to it.

The 2205 however had the right amount of capacitors so it sounded good, I am not sure if the JCM900's where the same way, but I tell you out of my two SLX's i liked the 50 watt version better.

If you go with the JMP-1 make sure to get a power amp you can bias, half of what makes marshalls sounds so great is the power amp distortion on top of the preamp distortion. Power amps from Mesa and other companies with a fixed bias are usualy biased cold so they wont sounds as good unless all you want is preamp distortion.

Filter caps take out hum and tighten the low end if the amount of capacitance is raised. Higher levels of capacitance are going to help make the amp 'stiffer' - which is why some people want the stock values left alone in old amps. Not real sure how that's going to make it sound 'thinner' - otherwise if you wanted to give your amp a real thick tone you'd just add a another cap in there.

Also, When filter caps are added it's the preamp side that the extra filtering benefits - the first stages of filtering is for the power amp section, as noise introduced in the preamp section is amplified many times over. If the power amp section is where all the tone is according to your other post, then it wouldn't make any real difference other than amount of hum.

Pete

[Grandturk]

I don't buy the 'totally clean boost' theory on the TS9 and SD (and variants) because an EQ does NOT sound the same, and I've never known any musicians who rely on a totally clean tone to use a TS9 or SD as a volume boost into ANY amp. There's a little bit of grind there even with the drive down, imho - even if it's not crunched out, you're still going through those diodes and it's clipping the signal a bit.

+1

I've built just about every manner of booster and screamer clone and owned and tried all the boutique guys - Analog Man, Keeley, Fulltone, etc - and I've never gotten close to a "clean-boost." IMO, its a myth - everything you plug into colors your sound, on or off. You either like it, or you don't - it either sounds good or it don't.

[siggy14]

Coloring your sound and creating distortion by using diode clipping are two different stories, as you said everything colors your sound somewhat.

I dont believe you can actually hear diode clipping, however in my opinion i find that diode clipping amps are usually tighter and acheive a distortion you could never get with tubes.

As the good preamp/poweramp, Yes a crappy poweramp section will give you a crap sound. But it is usually the power amp section that gives you that warm tuby sound and it is also from what stops it sounding shrill. Yes you can acheive a non shrill sound with solid state, but you have to use about twice the amount of watts to make it clean and sound good like a tube amp.

That is how line 6 does it, they make there power amps 200 to 300 watts so there is plenty of headroom. Dime Bag did the same thing, i think he had killer tone, but in order to not get to shrill he would us multible heads or i believe warheads were 200 or 300 watt heads.

+1

I've built just about every manner of booster and screamer clone and owned and tried all the boutique guys - Analog Man, Keeley, Fulltone, etc - and I've never gotten close to a "clean-boost." IMO, its a myth - everything you plug into colors your sound, on or off. You either like it, or you don't - it either sounds good or it don't.

[Grandturk]

Coloring your sound and creating distortion by using diode clipping are two different stories, as you said everything colors your sound somewhat.

You're absolutely right - a lot of times I'm thinking of the pedal's tone stack in my evaluation when I'm talking about color.

[MBreinin]

I bought the 50W combo the first year it came out and I thought it was the shit. Of course, it was my first real tube amp, so that could have had some bearing on my love of the amp. I still think they are good though. Good values as well.

Mike

[horns666]

Hell, I already said it on the other thread..same thing here..just a cut and paste..

here goes..again..

I'm witness to John on every step of the way on this one..fuck, that's all we did and talked about...for how many decades now???

John dialed up a very sweet lead tone with his 900..boosted the input with his wireless and gave it a very "edgy" 2210-ish "Edge of Thorns" era tone to my ears..!!!

You can sweeten up the lead tones now with the 5150's ..ala wahs and whatnots..The Amotts and In Flames did damn good with them..good examples of nice 5150 lead tones..

You have to work on getting a cool mix of the singing lead tone and a chunky rythm chug..I found the leads tones are a tad dead when I dialed up a cool chug sound with the peavey..

The 900s were thinner sounding versions of the late 800s with very weak bottom end..they can "sing" when dialed in with the assist of external eqs..my JMP-1/9200 (5881's) sounds full and has that 2210 vibe to it, with a tad more bottom and edge..it's pretty consistant.

The 2000 series to John and my ears is just buzzy, undefined muddy mush..The only sound we discovered usable/likeable was thru the clean cannel w/ a old Korg Hyper distortion..but the volume of that channel is so weak..when maxed it wasn't neary up to snuff for band levels...the gain of that amp just doesn't feel right for us..it's somewhat loose and flubby compared to the sharp definition of the prior marshalls..it has the "nu" sound to them in our opinion..that's just not us!!

We heard some great players use 2000s and sound fine tho..they get away with it just peachy..Reb Beach and Doud Aldrich are good examples..

My favorite player sounded his best live with a Recto.. John and I don't get along with them very well..we like the cabs tho..

Pat Travers said.."Go with what ya know"..it's your fingers and ears..a "good" amp will make 'em both happy..

When your happy , you'll be on your game and that's what people notice most..I think.

[horns666]

I'm not concerned nor have much knowledge of diodes and whatnots as Pete, John, Siggy, and John G on this matter nor do I want to..

I just know the sound I like and know how to get it..to be content...I'm pretty picky about my tone as is John..

John always busts on my JMP-1/9200 I bought new back in'96..because of this diode thing..I really don't give a shit..that fucker sounds better than both my old 2210s ran together, plus a '85 Hustler with Tracy Lords..that's what I traded them in for..No buyers remorse here..it's the ONLY setup I have ever owned that ables me to plug and go..less tweaking more playing...my playing improved alot because of that fact alone..so I'm loyal to the diode..because it works for me in this set up..that is all.. .. I never needed any pedals..

I don't care how it works as long as it does without issue..my 11 year old Marshall set up had never let me down and it sounds the same everyday..that's more than I can say with any Marshall head I've ever owned..and between John and I..there wasn't a Marshall we haven't owned at one time..

John had his 900 set up when he heard my 5150 w/BBE..it impressed him enough to sell him some of mine..funny thing is he still sounded like John with both set up..a bit different..but just subtle enough for us to know..nobody else..

[Joe_Steeler]

Bill, you think diode talk is interesting? wait till they start talking about the nuances of PTP wiring or PCB vs. chasis mounted Tubes.... the shit will get thick and long.

You gotta go with what sounds best and works for you. I'll bet Steve Morse or Eric Clapton will make a Gorilla 10W practice amp sound like a souped up Soldano.

[Twisteramps]

I dont believe you can actually hear diode clipping, however in my opinion i find that diode clipping amps are usually tighter and acheive a distortion you could never get with tubes.

As the good preamp/poweramp, Yes a crappy poweramp section will give you a crap sound. But it is usually the power amp section that gives you that warm tuby sound and it is also from what stops it sounding shrill. Yes you can acheive a non shrill sound with solid state, but you have to use about twice the amount of watts to make it clean and sound good like a tube amp.

That is how line 6 does it, they make there power amps 200 to 300 watts so there is plenty of headroom. Dime Bag did the same thing, i think he had killer tone, but in order to not get to shrill he would us multible heads or i believe warheads were 200 or 300 watt heads.

I can agree with you to a point. However, the tightest tube amp I ever played through was a VHT ultralead. No diodes in that, and it's tight as hell!

What you're talking about on the poweramp stuff is that a solid state amp sounds like crap when it starts to distort. So, they use a lot of watts to get around that. However, some of the more popular tube power amps (VHT) will not saturate or give an inch - ever play through an old marshall that after about 4 on the master just starts saturating the tone? VHTs don't do that, they just keep getting louder.

Pete

[Twisteramps]

Bill, you think diode talk is interesting? wait till they start talking about the nuances of PTP wiring or PCB vs. chasis mounted Tubes.... the shit will get thick and long.

You gotta go with what sounds best and works for you. I'll bet Steve Morse or Eric Clapton will make a Gorilla 10W practice amp sound like a souped up Soldano.

Here, I'll help. Tone is in the hands but Hetfield can't make a telecaster into a fender twin give the master of puppets sound. You have to have raw materials to work with.

PCB doesn't bother me if I'm not going to modify the amp, or if it's complex (more than 2 channels, midi, etc). PTP is the best for vintage style amps and modifications.

I'd rather have an amp with chassis mounted tube sockets because tubes generate heat (lots of it) and I'd rather not be pouring that heat into a PCB. Also, a socket mounted to the chassis is easier to replace than one on a PCB if it arcs - and a bad tube can cause that on ANY amp. On harmony central, a guy had a hefty repair bill on a 6 month old Mesa Stiletto that had a bad tube let go and cook a socket.

Pete

[horns666]

I really believe that Pete..if you get any amp..any amp at all that doesn't impede your playing abilities whatsoever..your'e gonna sound ..well just like you..

There is way to much living proof..who do you know that plays a LP or a strat thru a Marshall...the list is endless..really!!

Jimi, Ed, Randy, Uli, YJM, Gary Moore, Sykes, Zakk, Jake, and so on and so on..all the same gear pretty much..total different sounds..

Brian May recorded the solo to We are the Champions and other classic Queen tunes with a Pignose..a Pignose!!!

[siggy14]

That is odd, you would think a six month old mesa would still be under warrenty. And last i knew mesa still mounted sockets to the chassis, unless they changed that.

Here, I'll help. Tone is in the hands but Hetfield can't make a telecaster into a fender twin give the master of puppets sound. You have to have raw materials to work with.

PCB doesn't bother me if I'm not going to modify the amp, or if it's complex (more than 2 channels, midi, etc). PTP is the best for vintage style amps and modifications.

I'd rather have an amp with chassis mounted tube sockets because tubes generate heat (lots of it) and I'd rather not be pouring that heat into a PCB. Also, a socket mounted to the chassis is easier to replace than one on a PCB if it arcs - and a bad tube can cause that on ANY amp. On harmony central, a guy had a hefty repair bill on a 6 month old Mesa Stiletto that had a bad tube let go and cook a socket.

Pete